Startup Acquisition Stories w/ Sieva Kozinsky – Founder of Enduring Ventures

This is a mini-series within SaaS Acquisitions Stories where we profile the top Acquire Private Equity firms and firms acquiring online businesses at scale.

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Transcription –

Andrew Gazdecki:
All right. I am with Sieva Kozinsky from Enduring Ventures. Sieva, thanks very much for joining me. How are you doing today?

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Andrew. I’m doing great. I’m up in Lake Tahoe this weekend. I’ll be here working remote all week.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Nice. Well, hey, I want to jump right in, and I’ve been seeing just you on Twitter dropping these awesome threads and I’ve truly enjoyed them. How did you get into all this? How did you get into buying and selling companies? And maybe a better first question is what is Enduring Ventures and how did all this start, man?

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah. Well, I’ll start on the Enduring Ventures question. So Enduring is a long-term holding company. What we do is we buy cash flowing businesses at reasonable prices, and we pair them with great operators, and we run them and we hold them as a portfolio forever. That’s our plan. We frankly took a page out of Warren Buffett’s book in how he structured Berkshire Hathaway in the early days, and as closely as possible, we’ve tried to model our business after that model. There’s not a lot of holdcos out there, but we love it, and we love the diversity of thought and the diversity of businesses that we own as well.

Sieva Kozinsky:
And as far as how I got into it, I have always been an entrepreneur or founder. So for the last 15 years, I’ve started a variety of businesses. I used to run a venture capital fund. Most recently, I had built a network of clinical trial sites. So basically, we paired with private practice physicians and we helped large pharmaceuticals run clinical trials in the offices of these doctors. So as a marketplace model and our customers were like Pfizer and Novartis and Novaderm, and they would pay us $10,000 to $20,000 per patient to recruit a patient. We would split that with the doctor. So it was a great business. I ended up selling it.

Sieva Kozinsky:
And I think, that plus my time at business school opened my eyes to what you can build if you’re acquiring companies as opposed to founding them. I had always been the founder. I had always started from zero, one person alone in a garage or working with a friend out of our bedroom at first and then building up that company, sometimes raising a little bit of capital. But I think through that experience, as well as just meeting people from the M&A world and just being inspired by Warren Buffett, I learned that you could Acquire a business, a really well established company with a great brand. And in our case, we do so from retiring owners usually. You could buy the business. You could place a leader or you could promote management, and you could really help that business grow and sometimes modernize and really hold it as a portfolio, and you don’t have to go from that zero to one phase. You can really start with a business that’s fully functioning with a team in place and a brand. And I think there’s something really attractive about that for us.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Yeah. Well, you’re definitely into something. Right? So I was looking at your portfolio, and we were talking about this before we started recording, but you owned such a diverse group of businesses. Can you walk me through the first business that you Acquired? What was the business? What were you feeling? I got a sense that maybe you just jumped in and you just said, “I’m doing this.” And then obviously, you’ve Acquired businesses after that, but what was the first business and how did that go?

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah. So rewinding it to the beginning, Xavier and I who have been long-term friends, we met when we were running different companies. We stayed in touch for many years. I really looked up …

Andrew Gazdecki:
I love that, dude. He’s awesome.

Sieva Kozinsky:
He’s really incredible. He’s just such a great human. He’s just a genius in the way that he thinks, in the way that he works. And he’s also just one of the kindest, fairest people I’ve ever interacted with, so I feel super blessed to be working with him all the time. We had been friends. I really respected him from afar. And then when he hired a CEO at his previous business and wanted to leave, we decided that we were going to work together. And the first rendition of Enduring Ventures or our first pitch to our friends and family who had invested a little bit of capital in us is that we’re going to buy “boring, not sexy” tech businesses.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Is that how you pitched it? Were you like, “Hey, we’re going to buy some boring ass businesses. Are you excited about this?”

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah. That’s exactly how we pitched it. Most of our friends are tech founders or tech investors, so they’re way over extended investing in tech, but they are aware that there’s all these great cash flow companies, all these blue collar businesses that generate a lot of cash. They’re familiar with the Berkshire story. So for them, it was a diversification. It was a way to invest in a plumbing company without having to run it themselves. So that’s exactly how we pitched it.

Sieva Kozinsky:
We also pitched the concept that I think a lot of people are familiar with, which is that the baby boomer population is retiring. It’s the largest population in the US. And that means that there are millions of businesses that need to be sold, really high-quality businesses, which means people like us can have our pick and really pick the businesses that we feel fit our model and fit our pricing structure. So that was our pitch from day one.

Sieva Kozinsky:
We are now owners of 12 businesses. Three of them actually are tech companies. We also have a venture studio, so we’ve started a couple of businesses, but 90% of what we do is we buy businesses that are generating cash flow from retiring owners. That’s really most of what we do.

Sieva Kozinsky:
So to your first question or to your question, the first business that we bought was more opportunistic and was less along our original thesis. We had been looking for businesses to buy for six months at the time. We had a few different industries that we were particularly keen on. One of them was broadband, which we did end up buying businesses in. But our first business actually just fell in our lap. We had been long time users of UpCounsel, and I know you’re familiar with the brand and the company.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Yeah. I refer you guys all the time.

Sieva Kozinsky:
I appreciate that. Thank you. And for those who aren’t aware, UpCounsel is a marketplace for legal services. So instead of hiring an expensive law firm, you can go to UpCounsel, place a job, and really high-quality lawyers that have been reviewed by others will bid on your job. I had been using it before we owned the business, and I had saved anywhere between 50% to 70% off what a normal legal bill would be.

Sieva Kozinsky:
So we got a notification or I received an email just like any other customer that said UpCounsel was shutting down. It was from the CEO at the time. They had raised somewhere around $20 million, $25 million from some really great VCs, but I think they didn’t achieve the escape velocity that maybe it would require to go on and continue raising capital after that, things like Airbnb and Uber, and it’s a pretty common story. They had built a really incredible business. They built an incredible brand and a great technology platform that they really had an amazing CTO, but they just didn’t get through. They didn’t really cross the chasm to that next level.

Sieva Kozinsky:
So unfortunately, they were shutting it down, and we reached out to them in order to see, “Hey, is there an opportunity for us to buy this business, to carry on your legacy? You’ve obviously built something really useful here because both me and my business partner have used it.” And it sounds like you’ve used it as well. So we did work something out with the founders. We bought the business on a very friendly structure, I think, to both sides, frankly, given the situation. And that was our first business that we bought. And I’m happy to talk about the ones after that because they were a little bit more planned, but that one just fell onto us from the skies.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Nice. That’s a great business that I can definitely vouch for anyone who hasn’t gone on UpCounsel and need legal services. I feel like I’m dropping you like a paid ad right now, but that’s a good first one.

Sieva Kozinsky:
Lead the music.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Okay. So why didn’t you just stick to tech? Why did you move into mainstream businesses if that one was going so well, I assume, and I know it’s going well now? I think you’ve done a fantastic job growing the business and keeping it alive and improving it. What made you decide to diversify even more into maybe some of the other companies that are completely different?

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah. It all comes down to purchase multiple and cash flow. We have a unique lens on the world. Our business model is cash flow first. So everything we think about is how do we create an engine that generates cash flow that we can then reappropriate or move in a direction that we want. We don’t want to buy an expensive business that we then flip a few years later at a higher multiple. That’s really not our model, and there’s a lot of firms that do, do that.

Sieva Kozinsky:
I would say first, the thing that allows us to do this is for the UpCounsel story, Xavier and I were not involved as operators. The real operators were KJ and her team. She’s the CEO of the business. She’s the CEO of the whole tech platform where we now own three companies. And because we have such high-quality leadership, we can actually look across different industries as opposed to having our hands tied and having to really just focus on the day to day operations of the business. So it’s that partnership between us as investors and our operators that allow us to go into different industries in the first place.

Sieva Kozinsky:
And then back to my comment about generating cash flow. If you buy a software business, and I’m sure folks have seen it, let’s say you buy a $3 million ARR software business. Maybe you’re paying three to five times yearly revenue. Maybe cash flow is like $500,000 a year. So your multiple on cash flow is pretty high. Your relative multiple of what you’re paying for on cash flow is pretty high. And for the right types of Acquirers, that can be an incredible acquisition. They may have a vision on how to grow the business or they may have a vision on how to package it together and sell it to somebody else.

Sieva Kozinsky:
But for us, it really has to make sense on a cash on cash return. And we really like to buy at valuations that are three to five times cash flow. So if a business does a million dollars of cash flow per year, we really want don’t want to pay more than $3 million to $5 million to Acquire it. And you really can’t get that in most tech businesses, unless you’re very creative about structuring or unless you’re doing what we do now, which is you’re doing these VC fallen angels, and we’ve done a couple of them, and we’ve actually redirected our focus in tech to just focus on businesses like UpCounsel that have good revenue, that don’t quite have the profits to support it, and that we can turn around and create a cash flow engine from them. Because in those situations, we can buy it at a more reasonable valuation. So hopefully that answers it.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Got you. It does. Can you walk me through all the businesses you own? I know UpCounsel and then pool company, and then you mentioned plumbing. Give me the list.

Sieva Kozinsky:
So we own 12 businesses today. We really think about it as three main platforms, as well as our pool construction business, which isn’t a platform. That business is called Dolphin Pools. It’s in Phoenix, Arizona We’re very proud of it.

Andrew Gazdecki:
I love dolphins.

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yes. We also love dolphins. I think any day you see a dolphin in the ocean, it makes your week. You’re just calm. You’re happy. They’re wonderful creatures.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Dude, as a surfer, if you see a dolphin in the water, it’s either the best thing or the scariest thing because a shark’s tail is up, straight, and a dolphin’s is curved, and sometimes you can see it out in the water and you’re like, “Is that a shark or a fucking dolphin?”

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah.

Andrew Gazdecki:
But yeah, sorry, I digressed.

Sieva Kozinsky:
No, totally. I didn’t even know you were a surfer. I also love to surf. So that’d be a fun activity sometimes.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Where do you surf?

Sieva Kozinsky:
So I was in San Francisco, and I usually go to Linda Mar, for example, but I went to college in Santa Barbara, so I’d surf a few times a week there. And now I’m in LA, which I haven’t surfed, because I just moved here about a month ago.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Nice. I grew up in San Clemente, so that basically was forced. Instead of summer camp, I would go to beach camp at Doheny. I don’t know if you’re familiar with those spots.

Sieva Kozinsky:
Oh, okay. I get it. You’re an incredible surfer, and I’m barely standing up on long boards.

Andrew Gazdecki:
But when you grow up in SoCal and you try to surf in NorCal, you get in the water and you’re like, “Am I in like Alaska? What the hell is going on?” Anyways, keep walking me through the different businesses because this is fascinating. You have very strong, profitable tech businesses, but you also have Main Street businesses that I assume are also very profitable. That’s incredible to be able to manage that diverse. Those are two very polar opposite type businesses. So what else?

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah, so I’ll fill you in. So across the 12 businesses, the three main platforms are broadband. We own four broadband businesses. So what we do is we provide internet to people’s homes in second-tier cities or semi-urban cities. So that just means we don’t focus on San Francisco and New York where internet access or fast internet access is pretty easily available, but we do focus on the rest of the country where in a lot of places, you really can’t even have a Zoom meeting or you can’t have an online course and you certainly can’t do any online gaming. So we focus on those areas. We’ve bought four businesses, and we basically provide a competitor service to a Comcast or a Spectrum but using fixed wireless. So that’s the broadband business. It’s called Rango Broadband.

Sieva Kozinsky:
Then we own a business called Enduring Technologies, and that’s the business that I mentioned earlier that’s run by KJ. And it has three businesses within it: UpCounsel and ERA, which is an accounting software. And then the third business, I don’t think we’ve announced yet, but it’s that enterprise design software. It’s one of our fallen angel turnaround businesses.

Sieva Kozinsky:
The third platform is HVAC and plumbing, so heating, air-conditioning and plumbing. We provide services to home residents and commercial businesses in three states. And then like I said, the last business is our pool construction business. So that’s the summary of all 12 of them. And then we also own a small, actually growing now, digital ad agency.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Damn. So how do you … You mentioned this. I’m just trying to wrap my head around this because it’s so incredible. It’s hard enough for someone to operate one business, but you have these businesses in such different industries, dramatically different. So I guess for people that are listening who are thinking this is extremely interesting, how do you manage this? Is it just basically from the structure that you built where you put in an operator and then you basically step back and then oversee the business from there? Is that it?

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah, we really look for world-class operators first and foremost, people who have been doing this for 20, ideally 30 years that are looking for their next thing. Maybe they want to start a business. Maybe they want to be an owner in a business. And that’s really our business model, is finding those people because it’s really all about the people. It’s really all about these leaders. They run the businesses as their own. They’re the face. They’re the president. They’re co-owners in the business. They oftentimes bring in their own executive team.

Sieva Kozinsky:
So I certainly would not have the guts to go into many of these businesses, for example, like the broadband business without a world-class operating team. And we really have put together, or Martin there, who was the CEO of a telecom company for 20 years, he came and he put together a world-class team in order to do this, to run this playbook in the US and really build up a challenger ISP brand.

Sieva Kozinsky:
I would say a couple of things. One is that we really look at businesses that are simple to understand. There’s a lot of businesses, there’s thousands and thousands of companies per year that we’ll look at and we’ll say no to just because it’s too complex. There’s too many moving pieces for us to really get our head around or maybe it doesn’t have the right cash flow profile.

Sieva Kozinsky:
And the last thing I would say is we’re probably a little bit more comfortable because between Xavier and I, we’ve ran businesses in six or seven different industries, and we’ve been the CEO or CFO of those businesses, which it gives us some understanding of how to operate a company, how to be the backstop, if we need to come in and support some of the CEOs. We haven’t really had to do that, but it gives us that experience, that operator experience. It just gives us a little bit more confidence as you can imagine.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Nice. Are the main three businesses located in close proximity to you or are they nationwide?

Sieva Kozinsky:
They’re not. We both live in California and we don’t own any businesses in California yet. So they’re all nationwide.

Andrew Gazdecki:
That is freaking incredible. Good for you, man. All right.

Andrew Gazdecki:
So you talk to a lot of businesses looking to sell. You mentioned you look at thousands of businesses. What are some common tips or just things that you look for when buying a business? As someone who might be looking to sell their business, what would you tell them based on just everything that you’ve seen and ones that you’ve passed on, or if they thought maybe Enduring Ventures was a good fit, what really stands out compared to the ones that you pass on?

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah, there’s a few different, I think, important questions in there. The first one was maybe advice to people who would like to sell their business at some point in the future. I’d say my first piece of advice, and I think most founders get this wrong, most business owners get this wrong, is everybody waits until the year before they want to sell or sometimes just a few months before they want to sell to engage a broker or to start setting the business up in order to do it. I actually recommend at the very least thinking about your sale process three years before you plan to do it, and ideally even four or five years if you’re not in a rush because you can really optimize your business for the sale and you can reverse.

Sieva Kozinsky:
And I tell this a lot to owners that we talk to because we don’t always buy their business. We say, “Look, if you want to sell in the next three to five years, talk to some investment bankers in your space, talk to some brokers, talk to some people who’ve sold their business, even if you’re three to five years out, and learn, what is it that buyers are looking for? Understand what the multiples are. Do your own wealth planning, wealth and tax planning. That’s so important because ultimately, if you get it wrong, you can be paying more than 50% of your sale price to taxes. But if you get it right, you can really decrease that number. And that’s your life’s work. That’s so much effort that goes into it. So you should be planning and preparing.” I understand why because founders are busy running their own company and they don’t have time to do all the strategic planning or they don’t have time to think about it.

Andrew Gazdecki:
I like how you bring that up because that’s somewhat exactly what I did with my first business. We were actually located in San Francisco, but we were bootstrap, so we were like a purple cow in the city. And when the lease came up, I was getting tired in the business and so we moved it down to San Diego and we started focusing on profitability, operating the company more, basically preparing it for sale. And what we did is we started creating relationships with buyers literally three years out. And then when it came time to actually sell the business, it was in a position which I would consider ready to go to market, and we just basically reached out to people that were interested.

Andrew Gazdecki:
I like that tip because you can benefit from things like QSBS if you plan, which is something I recommend all entrepreneurs look up, which is, as you know, a tax relief against federal taxes. I haven’t heard that one from another person. So that’s a great piece of advice.

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah. I’m glad to hear that you started years before you were thinking about it. Did you meet with any wealth planners or tax advisors ahead of time?

Andrew Gazdecki:
I did. I have an accountant that I had worked with and still work with to this day. So the way we set up QSBS was literally, I think they were going to close the loophole, this was like a decade ago, but I heard about it December 21st or something like that. And we were an LLC at the time, and we scrambled to basically … I read an article that was like, “Attention: investors. Until the end of 2012 or something like that, this QSBS tax free thing can save you a boatload on taxes when you sell the business or when your investment is liquidated.” So we reincorporated to a C Corp within four days, and then there are certain qualifications that you have to meet. Usually, I’m not an expert here, but most venture backed businesses can’t apply for QSBS because you have too much capital on the balance sheet. So you have to have a certain minimum. You can’t have millions of dollars on the balance sheet or you don’t qualify. So we never did that. So we would actively deploy capital into the business.

Andrew Gazdecki:
And then in terms of lining everybody up, we did work with an investment bank prior. So that was where I got all of my leads essentially. And then we got offers at the time but still had gas in the tank and their minimum fee was 800,000. I was like, “I don’t want to pay that.” And so we basically waited for the two-year tail to end, and then that’s when we really started getting serious about preparing the business for sale. Basically just reached out to the old leads and sold the business.

Sieva Kozinsky:
That’s a perfect outcome, and you didn’t have to pay the banker fees, which is really nice. The QSBS thing that you noted is so important for entrepreneurs, and I think it’s just an important driver of our economy, of our startup economy as a whole. I think it’s an incredible rule. I hope they keep it around. We do have QSBS designation for Enduring Ventures, which is a C Corp and a holding company. And we were pretty strategic about making sure we set it up in the right way such that we could get that designation because it’s a pretty magical one for founders and investors. Yeah.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Nice. So let’s go back to the three-prong question I threw at you. Sorry about that. What are some mistakes that you see founders … So we’re already in market. I’m talking to Enduring Ventures. What are some mistakes or just yellow flags that you see pretty commonly that could be easily avoided?

Sieva Kozinsky:
I’d say so again, it just depends on the buyer, so I’ll caveat with that. I know there are buyers that care more about growth and there are some buyers that care about product. We really care about cash flow. We do want to see growth, at least a little bit of growth because it shows us the right momentum. It shows us that there’s product market fit. But for us, the first thing we’re looking at is what is your gross profit or what is your revenue to cash flow potential? And if that’s really high, this isn’t always the case, but if that’s really high, that’s often an indicator for us that this is a healthy business with pricing power, with high revenue or high profit relative to employee number requirement. So that’s what gives us a second look.

Sieva Kozinsky:
So another part of preparing is look, you might be in a fast growth mode, but if you want to sell to private … You might be in a fast growth mode, which means that you’re not focusing on profits, which is totally reasonable. But as you’re preparing to sell, if you decide that you want to sell to private equity, you need to be able to show, oftentimes you need to be able to show that you’re generating profit. This business can generate cash flow and it isn’t just cash hog. It isn’t just sucking out all the cash in order to stay still or to just grow a little bit. So I’d say that’s one thing about preparing for founders, is if you’re a year out or you’re two years out and you’ve had zero profit this whole time, which many businesses do or negative profit, consider showing profit or considering structuring your business so that you can make it very clear to the buyer that these two levers, if you move them, your business would be really profitable, which is a good story to tell to a potential Acquirer.

Andrew Gazdecki:
That’s exactly what I did too. I literally, and I had a buddy who was an investment banker. This is a true story. And I told him, I was like, “All right. I think we have someone who is … We had an IOI in place and it had a term basically.” We’ll check back in 30 days. After 30 days, it was getting a little wobbly in terms of interest. I think another business popped up. I recorded a video with an Excel sheet showing like, “Hey, if you raise prices for customers, this is” … I modeled out an opportunity and that changed the conversation completely just by pointing out opportunities. Like we haven’t …

Andrew Gazdecki:
So I guess one thing, I don’t know, would you agree with this? The more you can walk through buyers, potential opportunities within your business that you haven’t executed on, would you see that as a negative or a benefit?

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah, I think you’re totally right the way you did it. I see that as a huge positive, because everybody knows that you as an owner, you have limited capacity and you have limited time. So you can’t do everything that you wish for the business, but you also have the best understanding of the levers you could pull in order to grow this company or make it more profitable. In our first call with many sellers, we will oftentimes ask them, if you were running this business for 10 more years, which is our minimum, we want to run companies for forever, if you were going to run it afterwards, what would you do? What are the main levers you would pull in order to grow it? And despite them not executing on those sometimes, they usually have a very good sense of what needs to happen.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Nice. I agree. Well, I could probably talk to you for hours, but we’ll wrap this up with two more questions. Is that cool?

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah, let’s do it.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Actually three because I got one I have to ask you. 10 years from now, where do you see Enduring Ventures at? That’s a really broad question. Maybe it’s the next Berkshire Hathaway. How aggressive are you going? How big are you thinking or are you going to be slow and steady? What’s your goal with Enduring Ventures over the next decade?

Sieva Kozinsky:
I guess certainly not the next Berkshire Hathaway after 10 years. I think many people probably know this, but Warren Buffett built most of the value, 90% of the value of Berkshire today after age 55, I think, and I’m in my-

Andrew Gazdecki:
Are you going to keep going after 55?

Sieva Kozinsky:
I would like to do this forever. Yeah. Xavier and I would like to do this until we die or retire. And I don’t think I’m a retire type of person, so I plan to do it forever. 10 years from now, for us, it’s slow and steady. Every year, we plan to add a few new businesses to our portfolio. We’re happy to sit around and wait for the right opportunities. If we don’t see things within the price or the returns that we’re expecting, then we’re just going to pass and wait and allow our businesses to operate.

Sieva Kozinsky:
The nice thing about doing what we do now is all of our businesses generate good cash flow. So we’re not a startup. We’re never under the gun to perform. The only board members are Xavier and I, so we don’t have outside investors that are pressuring us to do anything. But for us, we love this. We’re both business nerds. So we want to continue buying businesses, compounding over a period of time. And 10 years out, I’m sure if you just extrapolate what we’ve done today, it’ll just be a much bigger version of what we have today.

Andrew Gazdecki:
The beauty of compounding. So the question I wanted to ask next is what area of your portfolio are you most bullish on? Let’s just call it fast tech businesses or main street businesses. Where do you think you’re going to spend the most of your focus over the next year or two?

Sieva Kozinsky:
That’s a really tricky question because …

Andrew Gazdecki:
And let’s make this even a funner question. Let’s assume we hit a recession. A recession hits. Where are you looking, main street or digital?

Sieva Kozinsky:
So I think main street business, the thing that we love about main street businesses that we engage in like HVAC, plumbing, broadband, is that if a recession hits, people in Arizona still need their air-conditioner. They’re going to pay for it or if a home-

Andrew Gazdecki:
It’s a hundred degrees out. Hell, yeah.

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah, exactly. People will sooner pay for their AC or their plumbing or their broadband than maybe they’ll pay for rent. I think so. I certainly would feel that way. So we feel like those businesses are relatively recession proof, and that’s partially why we love them. They throw off a lot of cash flow and they’re recession resistant. So we are just going to be doubling down on any business that fits those two levers. They’re recession resistant and they generate a lot of cash flow. We’re addicted. We love it. It’s super fun. I love interacting, especially with blue collar business owners. It’s really a ton of fun for us.

Sieva Kozinsky:
On the tech opportunity side, look, if a recession hits or if we continue to slide deeper into this, we’ve already seen many tech stocks drop by over 50%. And I think we’ve all seen the venture capital environment pull back. There’s probably going to be more opportunities like UpCounsel and our other businesses, that’s the VC fallen angels, the businesses that have raised a lot of capital but maybe haven’t fully grown into the scale that they should be at. So I imagine there’s going to be more of these opportunities where founders and VCs are looking for a soft landing for their business, as opposed to having to shut it down after all these years. But I think that’ll take another year or two. So in the meantime, we’re definitely looking at the blue collar, main street, cashflow generating businesses.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Right on.

Sieva Kozinsky:
Yeah.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Well, Sieva, I feel like I just talked to a brilliant mind and really, really I learned a ton, dude. So next time you’re around the ocean, hit me up. I’d love to surf with you. But congrats on all this success with everything. I’m rooting for you all the way. If people want to learn more about Enduring Ventures or just your story, where can they find you?

Sieva Kozinsky:
You can either go on our website. It’s just enduring.ventures and reach out. We’d love to hear from you. Or Xavier and I are pretty active on Twitter. For me, it’s just @, my first name and last name, @SievaKozinsky. And I usually like to share breakdowns of businesses there that we’re looking at or things that we’ve learned along the way. So hopefully, it’s helpful to some folks that come check it out.

Sieva Kozinsky:
And yeah, Andrew, this was great. I really appreciate you taking the time. I’m obviously talking to someone who’s grown some amazing companies before. I’m a big fan of Acquire. I tell everybody about it. Usually, I’ll scope out deals there every once in a while. We haven’t bought anything yet, but I think it’s just a matter of time before we use it. So congrats on building another awesome company.

Andrew Gazdecki:
Right on, man. I appreciate that. All right, dude. Cheers.

Sieva Kozinsky:
I’ll talk to you later.

Andrew Gazdecki:
See you.

Sieva Kozinsky:
Bye.